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Mythcommunication: It’s Not That They Don’t Understand, They Just Don’t Like The Answer

March 21, 2011

I just read a paper from the discipline of conversation analysis.  It dovetails nicely with what I wrote in Talking Past Each Other, and I’m going to go through some of the findings (I can’t redistribute the paper itself), and talk about some conclusions.  Long story short:  in conversation, “no” is disfavored, and people try to say no in ways that soften the rejection, often avoiding the word at all.  People issue rejections in softened language, and people hear rejections in softened language, and the notion that anything but a clear “no” can’t be understood is just nonsense.  First, the notion that rape results from miscommunication is just wrong.  Rape results from a refusal to heed, rather than an inability to understand, a rejection.  Second, while the authors of the paper say that this makes all rape prevention advice about communicating a clear “no” pointless, I have a different take.  Clear communication of “no” isn’t primarily going to avoid miscommunication — rather, it’s a meta-message.  Clear communication against the undercurrent that “no” is rude and should be softened is a sign of the willingness to fight, to yell, to report.

Kitzinger & Frith (1999)

The paper I just read is Celia Kitzinger and Hannah Frith, Just Say No? The Use of Conversation Analysis In Developing A Feminist Perspective On Sexual Refusal, Discourse & Society 1999 10:293.  Their methodology is a reanalysis of other date, including conversations in focus groups including 58 school and university students that they previously collected for other papers.  (The authors are at UK schools and from the language used their participants seemed to be predominantly Brits.)  Conversation analysis involves the painstaking cataloguing not only of the words used, but the way they are used — pauses (with lengths in tenths of second), overlapping speech, elongated syllables, verbal nods, rising tones and all.  Every um, ah, I guess and momentary silence that gets omitted from regular transcriptions is noted and used in conversation analysis.

Here’s what they find in a nutshell: 

Drawing on the conversation analytic literature, and on our own data, we claim that both men and women have a sophisticated ability to convey and to comprehend refusals, including refusals which do not include the word ‘no’, and we suggest that male claims not to have ‘understood’ refusals which conform to culturally normative patterns can only be heard as self-interested justifications for coercive behaviour.

[p. 295, emphasis mine.] 

The women in their focus group told them that saying no to sex was so difficult that they “try to avoid ever having to do it.”  [p.296.]  The authors ask why, and run through the usual sexuality-specific answers, but then arrive at a more radical conclusion:  that the difficulty of saying “no” is not an aberration.  “No” is hard, and it’s particularly hard for women, but part of the normal conversational structure is that “no” is a “disfavored” response, to use a technical term from the field.    Citing literature, they note that “[a]cceptances generally involve (i) simple acceptance; and (ii) no delay” while “refusals very rarely involve ‘just saying no’.”  [p. 300.]  That’s not just sexual acceptance and refusal — those are conversational norms in the English language.  Here are examples, in the complex transcription style they used, a style called Jeffersonian Transcription.  The parens note pauses (very short or, where a number is given, in seconds or tenths thereof); the “.hh indicates a short inhale.

Example 3

Mark:    We were wondering if you wanted to come over Saturday, f ’r dinner.

                (0.4)

Jane:    Well (.) .hh it’d be great but we promised Carol already.

               (Potter and Wetherell, 1987: 86)

Example 4

A:    Uh if you’d care to come and visit a little while this

         morning I’ll give you a cup of coffee.

B:     hehh Well that’s awfully sweet of you, I don’t think I can

         make it this morning. .hh uhm I’m running an ad in the

         paper and-and uh I have to stay near the phone.

         (Atkinson and Drew, 1979: 58)

 [p.301.]  Note that neither of these refusals involve the word “no.”  They are, to most of us, nonetheless clear.  They include a number of tactics that many of us recognize: delay; prefaces or hedges (uh, well …); palliatives like appreciation; and explanation.  The last is interesting: explanations usually go like this: “I would love to, but I can’t …”  The refuser situates the refusal in an inability, rather than an unwillingness, to accept.   “I’d love to, except that I don’t want to” is a wisecrack precisely because it plays on that norm — the sentence is structured to disguise the unwillingness but ends with a twist by stating it explicitly.  The authors note that “refusals are almost always accompanied by explanations or justifications”, citing literature.  [p.302.] 

So the authors conclude that as a general matter ”just say no” is an odd instruction because, “[q]uite simply, that is not how refusals are normatively done.”  [p. 302.]  The women in their focus groups talked about issuing sexual refusals, and they said they did so in a manner that tracked the general disinclination to issue them directly:

 In general, the young women in our focus groups characterized explicit refusals of sex as having negative implications for them. Later in the same group discussion quoted earlier, Sara comments that ‘they’d probably think you were really arrogant if you turned round and said, “I’m not going to have sex with you though, alright” ’, and Liz agrees with her, saying, ‘you’d feel a right prat’. In another focus group, Rachel admits that ‘I’ve very rarely said to someone, “I’m sorry, I’m not interested at all” ’, and Megan agrees that to make such a clear and direct statement would make her ‘feel a complete charlie’. In sum, these young women’s talk about the rudeness and arrogance which would be attributed to them, and the foolishness they would feel, in saying clear and direct ‘no’s, indicates their awareness that such behaviour violates culturally accepted norms according to which refusals are dispreferred actions.

[p.303, emphasis mine.]   These women said they generally offered excuses that posited an inability rather than unwillingness to accept the offer because, in one woman’s words, “that would stop the boy from blaming you.”  [p.304.]

Since softened and couched refusals are how refusals are typically issued in conversation, that’s how they are usually heard, too.  Reviewing the research, the authors find that people understand refusals to all kinds of offers in pauses, deflections, conditionals or even weak acceptances with certain tones and pauses.  [p. 307-09.]  The authors then draw this conclusion about women communicating refusal:

[Y]oung women responding to unwanted sexual pressure are using absolutely normal conversational patterns for refusals: that is, according to the research literature (and our own data) on young women and sexual communication, they are communicating their refusals indirectly; their refusals rarely refer to their own lack of desire for sex and more often to external circumstances which make sex impossible; their refusals are often qualified (‘maybe later’), and are accompanied by compliments (‘I really like you, but . . .’) or by appreciations of the invitation (‘it’s very flattering of you to ask, but . . .’); and sometimes they refuse sex with the kind of ‘yes’s which are normatively understood as communicating refusal. These features are all part of what are commonly understood to be refusals.

[p.309, emphasis mine.].  That means that they are “communicating in ways which are usually understood to mean refusal in other contexts and it is not the adequacy of their communication that should be questioned, but rather their male partners’ claims not to understand[.]” [pp. 309-310, emphasis mine.]  In support of this proposition, they cite to some things men and boys have said in from other papers  [TRIGGER WARNING for the blockquote -- pro-rape exhortations]:

responded with posters of their own including slogans such as ‘no means kick her in the teeth’, ‘no means on your knees bitch’, ‘no means tie her up’, ‘no means more beer’ and ‘no means she’s a dyke’ (cf. Mahood and Littlewood, 1997). Similar evidence comes from a recent study of 16-year-old boys who were asked ‘if you wanted to have sex and your partner did not, would you try to persuade them to have sex? How?’: the researchers comment that there was ‘clear evidence of aggression towards girls who were not prepared to be sexually accommodating’ and quote interview extracts in which boys say that in such situations they would ‘root the fucking bitch in the fucking arse’, ‘give her a stern talking to’, or just ‘shove it in’ (Moore and Rosenthal, 1992, cited in Moore and Rosenthal, 1993: 179). The problem of sexual coercion cannot be fixed by changing the way women talk.

[p.311, emphasis mine.]

O’Byrne, Hansen & Rapley (2008)

What Kitzinger & Frith say agrees with some research I’ve written about before, in Talking Past Each Other.  I focused on other things when I first wrote up O’Byrne et al., but here I’ll quote them on what their young men understand about refusing sex:

In a discussion of how they themselves would refuse unwanted sex (Extract 1) it is apparent that the participants are well aware that— despite the emphasis placed on it by the majority of ‘rape prevention’ programmes— effective sexual refusals need not contain the word ‘no’. Indeed it is evident that these young men share the understanding that explicit verbal refusals of sex per se are unnecessary to effectively communicate the withholding of consent to sex.

[p. 175, emphasis mine.]  The authors review more conversation excerpts, and conclude:

It seems clear then that young men, in these focus groups at least, are capable of displaying not only that they are competent at the offering of refusals, but also of hearing forms of female conduct (e.g. ‘body language’, l. 263, 268; the ‘shortness’, l. 270 or ‘abruptness’ of conversation, l. 272) as ways in which women may clearly communicate their disinterest in sex. It is also clear that the men can hear both ‘little hints’ (l. 278) and ‘softened’ refusals as refusals—thus statements like ‘it’s getting late’ (l. 273) or ‘I’m working early in the morning’ (l. 276) are not taken at face value as comments by women on the time or their employment schedule—but rather as indicators that, in the moderator’s words, ‘sex is not on the cards’. Of note here is that in none of the examples given do the men indicate that the explicit use of the word ‘no’ is necessary for a woman’s refusal of a sexual invitation to be understood as such.

[p. 178, emphasis mine.]  These authors, working a hemisphere and almost a decade apart, reach the same conclusion: that in sex as in normal conversation, people typically use and understand softened and indirect refusals. 

Mythcommunication versus Predator Theory

If you read this blog, I’m going to tell you something you already know:  rapes don’t happen by accident.  We know that the vast majority of rapes are committed by the same relatively narrow sliver of the population, that they have multiple victims, that they avoid overt force, which is more likely to get them prosecuted, that they choose victims who can be bullied and isolated and that alcohol is their tool of choice. 

One might read this and conclude that it doesn’t matter how women communicate boundaries, because rapists don’t misunderstand, they choose to ignore.  That is pretty much Kitzinger’s takeaway, and I think from the perspective of moving the focus from what women do to what the rapists do that’s a useful thing to say.  However, I think there’s more to it. 

I’m no communications theorist, but communications are layered things.  As we’ve seen, the literal meaning of a message is only one aspect of the message, and the way it’s delivered can signal something entirely different.  Rapists are not missing the literal meaning, I think it’s clear.  What they’re doing is ignoring the literal message (refusal) and paying very close attention to the meta-message.  I tell my niece, “if a guy offers to buy you a drink and you say no, and he pesters you until you say okay, what he wants for his money is to find out if you can be talked out of no.”  The rapist doesn’t listen to refusals, he probes for signs of resistance in the meta-message, the difference between a target who doesn’t want to but can be pushed, and a target who doesn’t want to and will stand by that even if she has to be blunt.  It follows that the purpose of setting clear boundaries is not to be understood — that’s not a problem — but to be understood to be too hard a target.

(One might wonder what good that is, if the rapist just looks for other targets.  But rapists are clearly rational and opportunistic, and if they have fewer targets who they can rape without repercussions, they’ll either have to rape less or risk getting reported and maybe prosecuted. )

I have no perfect solution.  The only lasting answer is to change the culture.

49 Comments leave one →
  1. Sam permalink
    March 21, 2011 7:11 pm

    Interestingly, though, if I remember correctly, Dr Timothy Perper (http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/ccies/contributoracks.php) demonstrated in “Sex Signals: The Biology of Love) that only very few men will – if untrained – correctly interpret female body language and verbal ambiguity with respect to !female interest!, I think in 1985.

    It seems a bit strange to me that they are assumed to be so much better at detecting non-explicit negatives, particularly given that not all “nos”, particularly if not nicely framed, are honest statements of disinterest – people also use those words strategically. I reckon what can be seen in the research is an ability to understand the social function of such a statement, but I doubt correct parsing of the subjective meaning of the statement is much more likely than in the positive case.

    Which, in turn, would mean that most men do apparently not risk a false positive interpretation and don’t move on after being told “no”, regardless of the wording and the word’s actual subjetive meaning. And which begs the question why a non-trivial subset of women still uses such a strategy? What are they testing for if most guys apparently won’t take chances with the possibility of false positives?

    • Mary permalink
      March 22, 2011 4:44 am

      Which, in turn, would mean that most men do apparently not risk a false positive interpretation and don’t move on after being told “no”, regardless of the wording and the word’s actual subjetive meaning. And which begs the question why a non-trivial subset of women still uses such a strategy? What are they testing for if most guys apparently won’t take chances with the possibility of false positives?

      The fact that a fair number of men will move on to abusing you if you state a direct no? I think most women have been in the situation of responding to a sexual offer too directly and getting, “Fucking dyke bitch!” or similar in response, even if the men in question then give up the pursuit.

      A bloke once walked up to me and my partner when we were looking at an underwear display and whispered, “I’d love to see you in that” in her ear. Being arsey thirty-somethings rather than nervous seventeen-year-olds, we turned around and shouted at him that he was a arsehole and that it was threatening and horrible and he should fucking sort himself out. He genuinely couldn’t understand what we were so pissed off about and told us that he was only trying to give her a compliment and ended up by telling us we were fucking stupid angry dykes ect (the “dyke” comment was a reaction to the fact that we were challenging him, not a reference to us actually being gay). He had convinced himself that walking up to a strange woman in the street in the dark, invading her personal space and telling her that you’d like to see her naked was a compliment, and not at all threatening. And if you compliment a woman and she responds with anything that can be perceived as aggression (and a direct no in most English-speaking cultures is aggressive), then she’s a bitch and you can tell her so.

      Women know that they risk that kind of response every time they give a direct no to a sexual advance from a man, even when the advance comes out of nowhere and is actually threatening. It starts when you’re a teenager. It’s a pretty big disincentive.

      • ginmar permalink
        March 22, 2011 10:55 am

        And then they whine that women are so complicated, who can know what women are thinking, why can’t women be more direct? But after the Shrodinger’s Rapist debacle—where zillions of guys lined up to tell women that they’re too uppity or cruel—–it just seems like too many guys have no clue about womens’ boundaries. And rather than care and subsequently seek out information, they assume the problem is women, and demand that women flatter and flirt with every guy who approaches them. The problem is not men, oh no. It’s women being repressed and not open to whatever excuse du jour that men dream up.

        It’s obviously not just the very bad guys, the rapists, doing this kind of catcalling/turning abusive crap. It’s guys who think they’re very nice and women are just bitchy, repressed, etc., etc.,

  2. March 22, 2011 12:37 am

    I found the information you put in your post to be rather refreshing. Could it be as simple as that women have been socially conditioned to avoid directly expressing refusal of sexual overtures? That is an interesting supposition to say the least and it definitely bears further investigation.

    Personally, I believe that if we found a way to reverse the social suppression of feminine sexuality, it would go a long way in preventing a lot of the “communication” problems that sometimes result in the genuine cases of mistaken sexual assault/rape (alcohol-impaired judgment issues aside). We all know that women enjoy and want sexual contact and experiences as much as men. But society places such a burden on both men and women to adhere to these roles as pursuer and pursued, that it causes no end of problems, as we all can evidently see. Furthermore, there are many men who are “turned off” by sexually aggressive women as they feel that it is “unseemly” and it places the woman in a role as a undesirable sexual partner. Breaking my fellow men of that mindset and breaking women out of that mold would address a significant number of issues regarding intergender communication.

    But placing that aside and going back to the discussion of rape, I hold to the idea that the vast majority of rapists (excluding cases where both individuals are intoxicated) suffer some degree of APD/sociopathy. These individuals do not see their victims as genuinely having “real feelings” or in extreme cases, even being “real people.” Even the act of rape is not about the victim; it’s about their desires, their needs, and their wants. Your heading supports that idea as well; not only do these people not want to hear “no” from their chosen victims; they also in more than a few cases, do not believe that the refusal is genuine.

    However, I feel that is is incorrect to frame a male who is persistent in trying to attract a female despite a failure to interpret the signals of refusal as a “rapist.” Many of the ideas surrounding courting are still holdovers from the post WWII era when a man “persisting in the face of unrequited love” was considered a noble and romantic fellow and not a “stalker” as he is seen today. Men didn’t make that stuff up; it was something that a man concluded after interaction with a woman. Women historically persisted in promoting the idea that “a good girl was not supposed to be too easy or too willing to be with a man.” What men got from that was that if you wanted to prove that you really wanted to be with a woman, you weren’t supposed to “give up” after the first, second, or even third rejection. Persistence was equated with devotion and wholesome desire. This goes back to women being groomed into repressing their sexual desires.

    And the sad part is that this still is common today. A fellow asks a girl out and she says “no” or otherwise rejects him, so he accepts the rejection and moves on; only to find out that she’s mad at him because he “gave up too early,” or “he didn’t chase her like he was supposed to have done.” More women need to learn how to either clearly and directly say “no or yes” and men need to learn the difference between “no I don’t want you at all” and “I’m just saying ‘no’ because I want to see how badly you really want me.”

    • Chantelle permalink
      March 22, 2011 9:32 am

      Demosthenes – I’m not sure you are actually grasping the argument of this post. It was not about womyn’s inability to express ourselves. In fact, it was the exact opposite. We are expressing ourselves in ways that are culturally appopriate and ways that men have been schooled in as well. It is the rapist’s refusal (in this case, men’s refusal) to accept the answer, which is why preventing rape cannot be achieved by asking womyn to change how they speak. In addition, in many societies, people (particularly men) are taught that a womyn’s “no” (regardless of how it is phrased) is a negotiation and never a firm no.

      There are no “communication problems” (whatever the fuck that means which is usually rape apologism) in aspects of sexual violence. Also, most rapists are not sociopaths. In my experience and as part of my work, I have seen that they are ordinary people who have been told that womyn should not be taken seriously. If a womyn says no (or however she says it), then a man needs to move the fuck along and not stick around to see if she really meant it.

      As for your last paragraph – no idea where you are going with that. One hopes you are not suggesting that a man should rape a womyn who says no, and then argue “sorry, I just thought it was your repressed sexual desires getting in my way. I was trying to free you from virginal patriarchal femininity”.

    • March 22, 2011 9:42 am

      Demosthenes, the structure of what you’ve written is that the problem that needs to be solved is unclarity in how men get laid. I reject that framing. The problem that needs to be solved is rape. If women don’t have a fear rape, if women can trust that their boundaries will be respected, the rest of the issues become a lot easier to solve.

    • drst permalink
      March 22, 2011 12:13 pm

      I hold to the idea that the vast majority of rapists (excluding cases where both individuals are intoxicated) suffer some degree of APD/sociopathy.

      No. It would be nice, I know, for the guys out there for this to be true, but it isn’t. Rapists are not monsters who are isolated and separate from “regular” men, not some sort of rare animal that is an exception and therefore doesn’t taint everyone. They are just people, mostly male, who are predators.

      I feel that is is incorrect to frame a male who is persistent in trying to attract a female despite a failure to interpret the signals of refusal as a “rapist.”

      I’m sorry your feelings are hurt, but men who refuse to accept a refusal are enabling rape culture by persisting instead of respecting a woman’s boundaries. This entire column is about the fact that men recognize a refusal even if the word “no” isn’t present, meaning men are perfectly capable of recognizing a refusal and moving on. When they don’t, they support a culture that protects rapists by suggesting the regular rules of interpersonal communication fail to apply to this one scenario and therefore most men who have pressured or coerced a woman into sex aren’t those monstrous rapists. Except, whoops, they are.

      Men didn’t make that stuff up; it was something that a man concluded after interaction with a woman. Women historically persisted in promoting the idea that “a good girl was not supposed to be too easy or too willing to be with a man.” What men got from that was that if you wanted to prove that you really wanted to be with a woman, you weren’t supposed to “give up” after the first, second, or even third rejection.

      Are you kidding me? Women do not promote any of this. This is patriarchy in action – controlling female sexual activity in order to serve the needs of men. It is embedded in our culture because it serves men. Do NOT place “blame” for this cultural trope on women. It’s been keeping us locked up for centuries. And the idea that men are supposed to ignore rejections isn’t about romance, it’s about the belief that all women should be available to a man whenever he wants them, for whatever he wants, at any time. Unless a woman is owned by another man, i.e. married, she has no business saying no, so the man just keeps going until she gives in. It’s not about courtship or social practices; it’s about the same thing it always is – women don’t have the power to say no and have it taken seriously.

      More women need to learn how to either clearly and directly say “no or yes”

      That is exactly the opposite of what the entire post was saying. Way to utterly miss the point, jackass.

      • k not K permalink
        March 23, 2011 8:01 am

        I agree with nearly every part of your comment. Demosthenes’ writing style was obfuscatory, but trying to argue that rapists are all clearly a tiny minority of sociopaths, so it’s unfair to call a man who is just “failing to understand” a refusal a sociopath/rapist was pretty damned ridiculous of him. Propping up rape culture by suggesting that men are just terrible at communication – which was exactly what this post seeks to DISprove – yikes.

        However, I wanted to note that saying the idea of playing coy is clearly patriarchy in action and therefore comes from “men” isn’t accurate imho. On the contrary, women who tear down and shame other women as “sluts” or “bitches” have always been rewarded by the existing system. So, many of us participate in the policing of other women’s sexuality. Shaming women who don’t play hard to get, is a part of that. In fact I used to do it myself quite a bit in order to glory in being the “good girl”, until I realized that behavior was making ME the enforcer of the patriarchy.

        It doesn’t help women to deny our gender’s part in keeping the pecking order the way it is, as tearing down other women to build ourselves up is something we women desperately need to talk about. And end.

      • March 23, 2011 10:28 am

        Knot K : On the contrary, women who tear down and shame other women as “sluts” or “bitches” have always been rewarded by the existing system.

        Yes…the existing system being patriarchy. Women help enforce it, yes, but the idea of a woman needing to act all coy and virginal does originally come from men. I guarantee you, women didn’t sit around in the olden days and decide that we should all completely suppress our sexuality and tell every single guy we’re not interested in the vague hope that one of them would pursue us anyway until we randomly changed our minds. It’s really hard to get laid that way. :P

    • Marle permalink
      March 22, 2011 1:07 pm

      Demosthenes, it seems that the “problem” of women saying “no” when they want a man to pursue them but the man takes the no at face value and goes away is a problem that won’t last long. If a woman sees men she’s interested in back off when she says no, then it won’t take her too long to learn that she shouldn’t say no if she means yes. If you want women to never say no when we mean yes, then encourage young men to always take no for no. Women want relationships too and if we can’t get them without being straightforward then we will be straightforward. Besides men, do you really want a women who won’t say what she means and you constantly have to second-guess her?

      • March 23, 2011 10:45 am

        This is what I always tell people!

        And don’t you love how apparently (according to the “but sometimes women play hard to get!” faction) it’s better to go ahead and rape a woman than to respect her boundaries and possibly make her feel a little rejected? So, I guess these noble, noble men are out there raping women on the off chance that their victim will feel flattered?

        Also, admittedly, I move in different circles from average (my friends are all kinky, artsy, bi, etc.) – plus I’m in my thirties – but at this point in my life I don’t know a single person who says no to sex when they really mean yes. I suspect it happens a lot less than rape apologists would like to think.

        Jesus. I shouldn’t read these boards in the morning…I always want to go right back to bed and pull the covers over my head.

    • Neg-Pos-Lurker permalink
      March 22, 2011 1:45 pm

      If a man cares more about getting laid then not raping someone it means he doesn’t mind raping someone, and this is what causes rape – people willing to commit rape to achieve their ends.

      If you’re more concerned about their comfort, than about the women they ‘accidentally’* assault, you’re the problem.
      And unsurprisingly so, since you made it clear on your blog that you blame women for ‘getting themselves raped’ to the point of complaining that there aren’t more consequences for a rape victim (other than the rape itself). Don’t be shy to enlighten us here with your ‘logical and reasonable’ ideas – and when you get banned drop by Manboobz.com, it’s gonna be fun!

      *Actually not so – there’s a whole post about it above your incoherent rant, you might wanna read it.

    • Grainne permalink
      July 12, 2011 3:06 pm

      Demosthenes, most of this has been said, but there is a fundamental difference between:
      1. a situation of a woman not wanting to fuck a man she’s only just met, or precisely when a man wants her to, and perhaps being hurt if he immediately loses romantic interest in her,
      and
      2. a situation of men refusing to take ‘no’ to sex for an answer and raping women.

      How are you not getting this?

  3. Joe permalink
    March 22, 2011 10:58 am

    I’ve had the opposite problem. I can’t tell when they want me because they don’t make it clear. So one time in college I was surprised when a female friend hopped into my bed and said, “let’s snuggle but keep our clothes on”. I complied. In the weeks that followed she distanced herself from me, and I only heard later through her best friend that she had wanted me to seduce her. She concluded that I had rejected her. Nothing could be futher from the truth. I wanted her, but I didn’t pressure her because I had internalized “no means no”. But now I’m with a woman who says what she wants clearly, and expects m to do the same. It’s all about defining and respecting boundaries.

    • March 22, 2011 3:01 pm

      I’ve been the girl who didn’t clearly say what she wanted, and then didn’t get it :) We grow up eventually.

    • k not K permalink
      March 23, 2011 8:06 am

      So, you have one anecdote about a woman who sent mixed signals, and one anecdote about a woman who is able to articulate her boundaries and wants clearly.

      And your conclusion is that you “can’t tell what THEY want because THEY don’t make it clear”?

      Hmm. Sounds like you’ve had one friend who had some slightly messed-up ideas about how sexuality works, for sure. That experience must have been frustrating. But tarring all of us with that brush is an overreaction, don’t you think?

      • Mary permalink
        March 23, 2011 11:57 am

        To be fair to Joe, I read it the other way around – he had encountered women who did say one thing when they wanted something else, but didn’t want to be part of that dynamic so he ended up with someone who was able and willing to say what she wanted. Which is pretty sensible, really!

      • May 26, 2011 10:31 pm

        More kudos to Joe for sharing his experience, which brings up the valuable, oft-overlooked point that rape culture is not a battle of the sexes, contrary to how it is too often portrayed in mainstream media. Yes, Joe, many women uphold patriarchy just as many men do.

        Dare I go so far as to say most women and most men? Yes, most. That is what defines a patriarchal culture. Your college story is one such example. Important to remember that we are all at different places in different times in our journey of understanding ourselves and our ability to communicate with one another. It sounds like you’ve attracted a woman with a healthy awareness of her own sexuality due to your ability to respect all women, so it pays off in the long run, wouldn’t you say?

        Important to include men’s voices in the conversation, knotK, in hopes of changing the entire culture, not just half of it.

  4. Emily permalink
    April 6, 2011 4:38 pm

    Just anecdotally, I have had said “I’m not having sex with you tonight” to at least 3 different guys during my growing up years and had very positive reactions. I can’t know if it mattered; likely they were people who respected boundaries generally. But I do think there are guys out there who are willing to rape only if they can convince themselves it’s not “rape” and if you name it clearly and loudly enough they will stop. Of course, others will not. That’s a slightly different variation on Thomas’s point that what one communicates with a blunt/forcefull “no” is not her/his refusal, but that she/he is going to make it more difficult for the rapist to get away with it.

    • Johnson permalink
      April 7, 2011 5:00 am

      Someone recently told me “no” and after I’d eased off then eased back on again, because I wanted to, she said “no, I’m not going to have sex with you”.

      I thought to myself “s***, what am I doing still trying to persist? I want to but this is not right”.

      So I endured an internal dilemna and we cuddled while my self confidence choked for air and my insecurites invited their friends to share cake and many games of badminton, which are all, of course, my own problem.

      I found this post fascinating as it rang those fantastic bells of nostalgia and truth in my ears.

      • May 26, 2011 10:40 pm

        (giggle) on the cake and the badminton, what a fantastic line! May I borrow it? I do hope you will soon find a woman who will reward your respect, if the cuddle bunny has not already.

  5. lemonade permalink
    April 6, 2011 7:04 pm

    A couple of people have brought up the “what if she’s being coy/sneaky?” line, and the “female body language is teh difficult” line. I hang out in some geeky circles and we’re mostly college students, so my social circle has a lot of awkwardness and difficulty around knowing whether sexual actions are okay or not. Especially in my adolescence, I was extremely crap at articulating my desires. The way around this, if one wishes to both avoid raping and achieve sexy times, is *keep talking.* “You made a noise, what did it mean?” is a valid question. “I’m sorry, I did not understand what you just said, could you rephrase?” is also entirely permitted.

    Even in casual/less explicitly sexualized environments, unless one is confident that touching is okay, it is a good idea to ask. “Would you like a hug?” and “Is it okay if I give you headscritches?” aren’t, in my social group, questions that will make people think you are creepy or a dork. These things will convince people that you are intelligent, polite, and affectionate, which may bode well for you when they consider with whom they’d like to romantically interact.

  6. Lydia permalink
    April 13, 2011 1:15 pm

    I think its pretty typical for women to “soften” their refusal/lack of interest in sex with a particular man. Partly, it’s empathetic desire to NOT hurt a man;s feelings (while still being true to one’s own)–but, men should recognize it’s ALSO out of reasonable fear that “a man who feels rejected is potentially a DANGEROUS man”. That his reaction will be “So you think you are too goof for me, bitch?!” and will try to get back at you in some way.

    I have survived both the “sterotype” of ape (total stranger who was overtly violent–choked and beat me but no weapon) and aquainence rape (woke from sleep with ‘friend’ on top of me). Police failed to follow up on stranger assault (& he had bragged that I was #19 of hsi victims). I didn’t go to cops after aquaintance rape since I knew full well I was UNlikely to be taken seriously because1/I knew him 2. I allowed him to sleep on my couch–he’d lost his apt 3.he was Black and I am white—didn’t want to deal with the whole “white woman accuses black man” trip since I do anti-racism activism. I DID warn other women who knew this man (asking them NOT to use my name if they tood other women to be careful). Unfortunately, someone used my name & it was a NIGHTMARE of being stalked by rapist & his friends, being constatnly accused of being a liar and a racist in my community and having my trust seriously undermined. When you KNOW the rapist you begin to wonder HOW do you figuer out WHO is trustworthy???? All this so a guy could get laid because as the “friend” rapsitsaid “I gotta have it!” If only men had any idea how forcing a woman just so they can get laid has long-term painful consequences for the woman. It’s been 10 years since the “friend” rape and UNlike being raped by a violent stranger, I am NOT the same….

    • Autumn permalink
      October 21, 2011 6:50 pm

      I too have experienced rape, and mine was by an ex-boyfriend. While I struggled to push him off me, and whimpered “please don’t”….he only heard what he wanted, and replied with “please give it to you?” Even when I said “no” he ignored me and had apparently convinced himself that it was going to happen no matter what. Because we had slept together while dating–nobody believed me, even my family. He was a few years older than me, and the people I reached to for help seemed to think that I was just feeling regret for sleeping with him–and the rape “story” was nothing more than an immature girl trying to seek some sort of revenge. This was 12 years ago, and it still hurts.

  7. June 12, 2011 6:33 pm

    I do not understand why is so hard to understand. When i was a freshman in college I had a woman nearly naked in my bed. She told me that she did not want to be, in her words, “devirginized” that night. I respected her wishes and we did not have intercourse. We never had sex and we are good friends today.

    I have never been offended at rejection. I have also never needed to be flat out told no. The fact that I was not told yes is enough for me. That it is not good enough for some other guys who feel that they are entitled to be with whomever they want is a concept that is alien to me.

  8. JPaper permalink
    July 5, 2011 10:47 am

    Bloody hell, this is interesting. Thanks!

  9. July 5, 2011 4:00 pm

    For me it was a boyfriend, and it was fooling around that he took further than I expected. It was never about what I communicated or didn’t communicate; to this day I don’t know if I would have said yes or no, but he didn’t bother to ask. Because he didn’t care what my answer would have been.

    It was the first time I had been naked with a man. I wasn’t ready for that but/and I was so nervous and anxious in the situation that I didn’t have breath to speak. If he was any kind of decent he would have picked up on that.

  10. Sian. permalink
    September 14, 2011 9:24 am

    It’s bizarre that we still have people who think if women can just communicate better and not be coy the man will back off. This assumption that a rapist is telling the truth that they didn’t understand is at best naive and obtuse. Rape is not a mistake, it’s not ‘oops, I didn’t realise, my bad!’.

    Some rapists also have consensual sex, but when they commit rape they don’t want sex with women (or men) who want sex with them. The whole point of rape is that the rapist wants to take power from the victim. They want them to not want it.

    Depending on the type of rapist, they’ll be more excited by either the victim’s reaction to overt violence or the victim’s reaction to being coerced and manipulated into a position they have no idea how to get out of.

    The ‘no’ (explicit or implicit) is what the rapist is looking for before they go ahead and do it.

    I don’t get why some people insist on acting like this is all some awkward social faux pas like bringing red wine to a dinner party where the host is serving fish.

  11. February 7, 2012 6:07 am

    Outstanding article – thanks so much! Will repost it.

Trackbacks

  1. Body Language And Consent « SAFE Women and Girls
  2. Thursday Links : A Most Curious Blog
  3. Monday morning roundup ~ 4th April 2011 | Contemporary Australian Feminism
  4. Not saying “no” is a very, very long way from saying “yes” « rage log
  5. Link Farm and Open Thread: Please Vote For Us Edition | Alas, a Blog
  6. Creep « The Brunettes Blog
  7. Beyond ‘no’: subtleties and complexities of refusal « NWMAF SafetyNet
  8. Links of Great Interest: Signal Boosting for a couple orgs — The Hathor Legacy
  9. (Mis)Communication And Misreading Refusals | My Sex Professor: Sexuality Education
  10. Seks, pornografia i feminizm « Polyinpoland
  11. Date Rape – זה קורה לטובים ביותר « משהו לנשנש כשהאורחים יגיעו
  12. The double-bind « Singularly Bizarre
  13. guerrilla semiotics | Re-thinking rape: It’s Not That They Don’t Understand, They Just Don’t Like The Answer
  14. Hitting on women in elevators and subway exits. | emporiasexus
  15. Derangierte Einsichten - Linkspam
  16. Under Duress: Agency, Power and Consent, Part One: “No” | A Radical TransFeminist
  17. Some Interesting Blogs and Articles About the Issue of Communication, Sex, and Rape « mindfulconsideration
  18. Consent is sexy « The World Is Watching
  19. תמשוך לי בשיער | אין עשן
  20. Not So Great Expectations « Damned Hippie

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